ECN Forum Forums Technical Discussion Re: Computers and the Internet ADSL??

OK I am looking at getting ADSL here, but the speed is one thing that I am a bit "iffy" about.
Xtra says that "Jetstream can be up to 3 times faster than a Dial-up connection", at NZ$69 a month, it would want to be at the speed of light!.
But I have to buy an external Modem plus filters for my 2 telephones.
NZ$199 for the modem, NZ$15 a piece for the filters.
If you have a Telecom Tech install the gear it will cost you NZ$700 all up.
I mean who is kidding who here?.

Do you have a satelite dish? You can get internet via satelite too, dont know what the prices are like in NZ. Here in the US (in the boonies), where I'm at the price is cheaper for me to use the sat downlink and the telco uplink.

I can get both up and down with the sat for $50 a month, down only for $35.

sounds like you are getting ripped off to me.

Mike, for ADSL a download of 384kbps is fairly common—so, unfortunately "3X" versus "7X or more" speed does not sound like the best deal for the quoted price.

I can understand the frustration of dealing with pokey dialup, though. What might help better decide may be to find someone else in your area that would let you try/talk over their ADSL.


[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 05-22-2004).]

Bjarney,
I am on about 4-5 kb/s with a 56K modem, Download speed that is, with the Dial up Connection.
Call it bad phone lines, call it what you will, 384kb/s sounds pretty darn good!.

Just done a speed test on mine and it is 720Kb/s, not too bad for £25 a month. I used a modem for years and would hate to go back to a dial up connection especially the old 9.2k greta grand father of 56k

My son has adsl and his speed is comparable to mine.

Can you buy your own external modem and filters or do you have to use the phone company's?

Mike,

That sounds pretty high to me, but if that's the fastest thing you have available there, and there is little competition, that's they way it will be for a while.

Over here in the states (in major cities) cable modem service is what rocks! Usually between 2-3 Mbps (2000-3000 Kbps) for US$79 business class US$45 residential per month they give you the modem and installation is free.


[This message has been edited by Mean Gene (edited 05-27-2004).]

"My fellow Americans..."

NZ$15 = US$9.35
NZ$69 = US$43.00
NZ$199 = US$124.00
NZ$700 = US$436.00

Trumpy:
There are a lot of different deals here, depending on the serivce provider, telephone company, etc.

Compared to my experiences with ADSL:

- The monthly rate sounds about right. The cost of the modem is at the higher end. Here, a lot of companies will give the modem free with a one year contract for service.

- The filters are also a bit at the high end.

- However, the telecom tech cost is way higher than anything I have seen here.

Do you have specifics as to the speed (download/upload) offered?

Sorry Mike, I missed replying to your 05-26-2004 06:51 AM post.

I'm promised 384 kilobits/second, but I think you mean 4-5 kbytes/second on "56K" dialup.

For communications, I learned 'bits' and most everthing else 'bytes.'

But, Mike said the company claims . . .
That doesn't warrant even paying extra for in my opinion, much less that much money.

Henoch, thanks for the $$ conversion. That help to put it more into perspective.

Bjarney, it takes 8 bits to make one byte.

[This message has been edited by Mean Gene (edited 06-03-2004).]

Hello Mike!
It really depends on your prices and your location. My situation was, here ADSL is available. It is not at all places. (It must be built up somehow. Or something)
Second thing is, however Hungary has many telephone companies, the telephone bills are still high (I changed HUF prices, that is Hungarian Forint), line phone about 0,1 USD/min mobile phone about 0,5 USD/min, that meand for a mont our calls cost about 50 USD/month for line and 100/month USD for mobile calls, with these prices it would be very expensive. The ADSL is about 50 USD/month and for there are different new companies on our market, the starting price usually is 0 HUF. Another possibility here is cablenet, I don't know much, but it is not on Cu-lines, it is on optical. The prices are like the ADSL, but another, digital system is needed, also for the television. (Oh, an average salary is about 300 USD/month)

[This message has been edited by Gloria (edited 06-20-2004).]

Mike, one more thing about the advances of broadband transmission: Thru MSN you can chat live, using a headset (you can speak and hear the other!!!) and a cam, no matter where on Earth your friend is, FREE.

Looks like I missed this one first time around.....

But remember that when we're dealing with asynchronous data transmission you need to add a start bit and a stop bit, so the maximum theoretical throughput in bytes/sec is not bits/sec divided by 8 but actually bits/sec divided by 10.

ADSL has actually just been enabled in my local exchange a couple of weeks ago and I have just received my first request to install the appropriate wiring at a nearby house.

I wouldn't bother to go the separate filter route if you can avoid it. Better to install a filter/splitter at the network interface and then run the voice and ADSL on separate pairs around the house.

Is that way popular in the UK? I think it is quite an expensive way, no?

In Belgium, plug-in line filters are the most popular, because the subscriber can easily install them without getting Belgacom in to rewire everything. A typical do-it-yourself installation takes about three days from going into the Belgacom teleboutique to pick up your line filters and sign the forms and then logging in.

The monthly cost is about EUR 30 for a 3Mbits/s service. I've been using it since about 4 years ago now, and could not bear to go back to dialup.

I am wondering about setting up a wireless network now, but at present the Alcatel Speedtouch modem feeds a NAT router/firewall (old Linux PC with a pair of NICs, one to the Speedtouch and one facing the internal 100Mbits LAN). Has worked without a hitch so far.

Most Do-it-yourselfers in the US go with multiple filters. I put mine just inside the demark. Incomming line goes straight to the DSL filter, one jack comes off the top to the DSL modem and the output heads over to the punchdown blocks for the phone. My modem and ethernet switch are both located adjacent to the backboard where all the comm wiring from the house terminates.
Here, the customer is responsible for all the premisis wiring past the demark. I just ran Cat. 5 for phone and network. It was easier to buy 1 big box.

[This message has been edited by Big Jim (edited 10-12-2004).]

As ADSL has only just arrived in my area, I wouldn't like to guess how many people will go this route. I don't doubt that individual plug-in filters will probably be more popular (at least to begin with) among the less technically minded.

In the case I mentioned above, the line enters the front of the house and the computer is at the back. At the moment the guy is using rather tatty extension cords run around the edges of carpets etc. to get the phone line back there, so it needs replacing anyway. He decided he'd rather have it done with a single splitter/filter at the demarc. I can certainly see this as a better way for anyone with multiple telephones all around the house.

As Jim mentioned for the U.S., the premises wiring is the homeowener's responsibility here these days as well. Our standard modern network interface is the NTE5:



Click here for more details

The removable panel at the bottom is where the subscriber terminates his own extension wiring.

We can get an ADSL filter which takes the place of that lower connection panel and provides a standard BT phone jack (filtered) and an RJ45-type for ADSL.

Click here for an example.

Curiously, the genuine BT replacement only provides an unfiltered feed on the front jack itself, with just filtered terminals for voice available for connection to extension wiring. Revised versions are available which also provide unfiltered terminals for running ADSL extensions. (Of course, with the genuine BT replacement you could still tap the incoming line terminals inside the demarc to run unfiltered extensions, although officially this is verboten!)

I'll just be running CAT5 cable from the demarc to the rear of the house, where a 2-gang voice/ADSL jack will be installed. White/blue pair will be filtered voice line, orange/white will have one line in use for the bell feed (as is standard on regular phone wiring here), then I'll put the unfiltered line on the white/green pair to the RJ45.

I'm actually going out later today to do the install, although his ADSL service isn't due to be turned on until the end of the week.

It's supposed to be a 1Mbit/sec connection, but at 5 miles as the wire runs from the C.O. via some rather dodgy cabinet splices we'll just have to wait and see......


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-12-2004).]

You can avoid running cables under the carpet by using wifi in the house.

Does someone know how can telephone, cable TV and internet work together wireless?

UPC has started its telephone beside TV and interned via cable, and I'd like to know what's next before I buy a new TV.

What the tv has to know to recognize the wireless?

What telephone does recognize this wi-fi line?

Now I have new problems. I have a US Robotics wifi and it asks me to change my IP. My friend says you have to go inside (I brought the screwdriver, he said no, inside the software)...
Where is that inside?

Gloria,
If you are using Internet Explorer, it's well hidden beneath multiple layers of menus.

Take a deep breath......

Tools -> Internet options -> Connections -> {select your connection} -> Settings -> Properties -> Server type -> TCP/IP settings.

That's on IE5. It may have moved on later versions!

Thank you Paul, now I know the problem, the last user of the wifi changed something inside, I guess the IP.. Now it's in the service, so I guess if next time something doesn't install by itself, I go first to the shop where I bought it. LOL!
Must I have all these things around me? Do I really need these??? ;~)

Re the ADSL install I mentioned above, it has not gone as smoothly as it could have done.

I went round to the house the day after service was supposed to have been enabled to install and setup everything only to find no DSL signal on the line.

A check on the BT Broadband website against his line revealed that his ADSL order had been canceled!

It took a lot of calling to eventually come up with the answer that BT could not enable DSL on his line as it was running through a highly compressed DACS system. (That's a multiplex system to enable mutiple phones to share one physical pair back to the exchange -- The units can be seen by the dozen around here on poles.)

Anyway, BT are going to try to swap him onto a different line but will be charging him at extra £75 (about $135). He's not too happy, but should finally get ADSL service in a couple of weeks.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 11-02-2004).]

Yeah, the main problem with ADSL is that to set up the system costs money, and anyway it depends on the location, but when you have it, they can only guarantee you 128 kbit/s broadband, no matter if you have 768 kbit/sec. So very soon it will not be enough.

And other possibilities, such as cablenet and wifi are still VERY expensive.

Hard job.

One thing that surprises me about DSL-offers is the varying bit rates: You can get 128 kb/s from one company at ~$25 /month and 100 mb/s for maybe three times that from someone else. I don't quite follow their pricing structure...

Dear C-H! As far as I know in ADSL there is no 1mbps and if there is, the guaranteed minimum broadband is 128 kbps.
1mbps guaranteed is available only by cablenet, wifi or something else.

Of course who needs 1mbps now? But as the world goes, how long 128kbps will be enough?

[This message has been edited by Gloria (edited 11-04-2004).]

More on this continuing saga.....

BT has now contacted him again and told him that there will be no extra charge for the line work after all.

It really sounds as though the local area has not been very well organized to cope with the introduction of ADSL.

Hi Gloria,

> Dear C-H! As far as I know in ADSL there is no 1mbps and if there is, the guaranteed minimum broadband is 128 kbps.

This link I am on right now is 3mbps. This is now the slowest rate offered when one gets ones Belgacom line enabled to have ADSL. In the earlier days of ADSL they gave one 768kbps but about thirty months ago I think, everyone was upgraded.

I think it varies a *lot* from country to country; here in Belgium it is said that almost 35 % of internet users have ADSL, for instance, where one hears that in the worst nations like the UK, for example, they are still as low as 10 or 15%.

One also sees a great divergance in prices and line speeds from country to country. The cheapest prices here in Euros is the same number as the UK price in GBP, only they get a 256kbps link instead of a 3mbits.

I like this speedometer.
http://specials.zdnet.co.uk/misc/band-test/

Jooles,
Is that in a Residential installation?.
Also, could that be put down to the final cost of the actual install, where like it is in New Zealand here, you are tied to one ISP for real Broadband Access?.
Or will we stay in the 1980's for ever here?.

Don't get me wrong, but there are still some branches of Treasury that have the old Telex machine and they want to keep it!.
Dumb-A--es!.
And a few of them people have a say on how TeleCON NZ works.
It's not right!.


[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 11-06-2004).]

Hello Mike,

Yes, that's the residential tariff. If you pay for the business tarriff you get a static IP address and a faster uplink, so that you can host your own web servers etc.

The ADSL provision here is always by the phone company, Belgacom, but one can choose to which ISP they patch through the other end of your line. I went with Skynet, which is also a part of Belgacom, because they have always been pretty reliable, but I've heard others say good things about wanadoo and easynet.

There was no installation fee, just fill in a form in the phone shop and wait two days for them to turn it on. No drama, as I they say where you are :-) I just had to pay for the Alcatel modem, and as I signed up on a special offer they threw in the line filters for free also. Running costs are about 27 euros pcm.

There are also alternative services that are provided by the cable TV company, and those seem to be popular up in Flanders (Dutch speaking cities like Antwerp have broadband provision by a company called Telenet), but in Brussels and I believe throughout most of Wallonia (the French speaking region south of Brux) I believe the ADSL package is more popular. There is another cable TV provider in Brussels called coditel; I don't know how much that costs but it seems not to be very popular.

You may chuckle about TELEX, but it's on my CV -- designing and implementing interfaces to a TELEX server from various mainframe systems in banks. And it is still used *extensively* in finance, for sending money transfer and trade or settlement instructions from participating banks to clearing houses. The international S.W.I.F.T. network, which is based at La Hulpe just south of Brussels, has only just this year switched off its old 9600 bps X-25 packet switched network, and they thought that was an almost dangerously radical step to be taking :-)

Yes Jooles,
I can't believe the old Telex system is still around.
But only in banking and accounting circles would it be keep alive.
If the Abacus could have been kept alive, the banking "profession" would have tried it on!.




[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 11-25-2004).]

Y'all might find this website of interest:

North American Data Communications Museum

Guys,
Here is a "revised" set of charges presented by the main (only) Telco and ISP in NZ here.
Have a good look around the site, if you dare, there are a lot of fish-hooks in what's written there.

{Oop's mucked that one up, what a difference one number can make!}



[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 11-25-2004).]

Dear Mike. I maybe wrong, but that is quite cheap. I mean if I have seen it right, a basic is about 50.- NZD. Here ADSL 256 is about 100 NZD. That's what I pay.
But prices depend very much on salaries.

That Museum was interesting. When I was in college, we moved up from keypunches and carry the deck to the computing center to 33ASR teletypes and we thought we were in heaven. That changed our world from batch to on-line. We even had computer access from a satellite facility about 30 miles away. That was near the time that HP introduced the first scientific calculators. To geeky engineering students, life was good. Now I have to live with only a 256k ASDL line at home. BTW, I think the theoretical max for ASDL technology is about 6 or 7 megabits. What you get is almost exclusively determined by a software entry at your CO. It is a bit ironic but the best cable plant for DSL is old-fashioned, heavy gage, solid copper lines. A lot of the new technologies exclude DSL.

What is the next step up from ADSL?.
Is it Fibre Optic?.
It'll be the year 5000 by the time we get that here, by then we'll be back to living in trees again!.

The first high school I went to in 1977 had an old system I played around with where we still had keypunches for batch operation. We could still operate interactively: By using the teletype keyboard to input code in octal onto the magnetic drum.

In 1978 I transferred schools and spent many hours using an ASR33 linked via a 110 bps modem to the PDP11/40 at the local college. But the sheer luxury was going down to the college itself where if you pleaded, begged, or just managed to get there early enough, you could enjoy the luxury of using an assortment of VDU terminals. The Cifer VDTs were beautiful to use.

BTW, the ADSL story I posted above is now complete, for the service was finally enabled properly a few days ago. At last!

Trumpy,

"In the year 2525, If man is still alive...."

Mike, the upgrade is from 1-100 mbit/sec, which is called a leased line here and requires a whole lotta money and a Cisco X21 special router (which the dealer forgot to say so we are waiting for the internet since 15 Nov).

[This message has been edited by Gloria (edited 12-08-2004).]